Swedish rape trial controversy by Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 06:55
Earlier this month in Sweden Judge Larson acquitted a man accused of rape saying "its only rape if he thinks it is" sparking widespread controversy and protests.
I'll summarize the facts of the case:
The victim yelled "no" so loud she lost her voice. “I expressed very clearly that I didn’t want to, so there was no way he could misunderstand me.†She told investigators. He allegedly responded by becoming more aggressive, slapping her face and covering her nose and mouth so that she couldn’t breathe.
The defendant said “I recognized the way she said no as part of the sex.†(I assume he means roleplay?) Perhaps even more disturbingly he added that he“recognized it from other girls.â€
The judge ruled, "If the thought had not occurred to him, that she did not want to have sex with him, then he didn’t have any intention to do what he did.†In other words the accused couldn’t possibly be guilty of rape unless he intended to rape.
In Sweden intent is necessary to prove a crime, without intent then there is no crime and so according to current Swedish law the judge is not incorrect in his judgement. The Judge further said "No judge in Sweden should feel pressured by potential media fallout in difficult cases. If what is happening right now in mass and social media has the potential to scare less experienced judges, we're on a dangerous path."
The case has sparked numerous rallies and attempts to have the law reformed although these attempts are facing difficulties and opposition from the current government.
Source: http://www.thelocal.se/20140124/momentum-grows-for-swedishrape-law-reform
Earlier this month in Sweden Judge Larson acquitted a man accused of rape saying "its only rape if he thinks it is" sparking widespread controversy and protests.
I'll summarize the facts of the case:
The victim yelled "no" so loud she lost her voice. “I expressed very clearly that I didn’t want to, so there was no way he could misunderstand me.†She told investigators. He allegedly responded by becoming more aggressive, slapping her face and covering her nose and mouth so that she couldn’t breathe.
The defendant said “I recognized the way she said no as part of the sex.†(I assume he means roleplay?) Perhaps even more disturbingly he added that he“recognized it from other girls.â€
The judge ruled, "If the thought had not occurred to him, that she did not want to have sex with him, then he didn’t have any intention to do what he did.†In other words the accused couldn’t possibly be guilty of rape unless he intended to rape.
In Sweden intent is necessary to prove a crime, without intent then there is no crime and so according to current Swedish law the judge is not incorrect in his judgement. The Judge further said "No judge in Sweden should feel pressured by potential media fallout in difficult cases. If what is happening right now in mass and social media has the potential to scare less experienced judges, we're on a dangerous path."
The case has sparked numerous rallies and attempts to have the law reformed although these attempts are facing difficulties and opposition from the current government.
Source: http://www.thelocal.se/20140124/momentum-grows-for-swedishrape-law-reform
detrimentum 2015/01/29 07:08
how do you prove intent? Must the accused confirm it? An honest criminal... the judicial system of Sweden is the most criminal friendly it would seem.
This messed up my entire week.
how do you prove intent? Must the accused confirm it? An honest criminal... the judicial system of Sweden is the most criminal friendly it would seem.
This messed up my entire week.
Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 07:13
This part is my own opinion so skip it or do not at your own discretion:
As woman yes but also as a person regardless of my gender I believe a woman's body is her own and no one has the right to do anything to it against her will and certainly not with impunity. Unless it is part of a prearranged and explicitly negotiated agreement with a safe word, no always means just that, No. It is not complicated and there are no exceptions.
Whether this man "intended" or did not intend to commit the rape, he DID commit it and I feel the law should do something about it. There has been a crime and if nothing else the victim of the crime deserves justice, it does not erase the crime but it is all the state can do for her at this point.
While the judgement is in line with the law it is not in line with the spirit of the law and legal arguments have been successfully made many times on this basis so it would not be without precedent.
This part is my own opinion so skip it or do not at your own discretion:
As woman yes but also as a person regardless of my gender I believe a woman's body is her own and no one has the right to do anything to it against her will and certainly not with impunity. Unless it is part of a prearranged and explicitly negotiated agreement with a safe word, no always means just that, No. It is not complicated and there are no exceptions.
Whether this man "intended" or did not intend to commit the rape, he DID commit it and I feel the law should do something about it. There has been a crime and if nothing else the victim of the crime deserves justice, it does not erase the crime but it is all the state can do for her at this point.
While the judgement is in line with the law it is not in line with the spirit of the law and legal arguments have been successfully made many times on this basis so it would not be without precedent.
Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 07:23
The accused confirming it is one way, the judge may look at behavior too and related evidence to infer intention. It is not a perfect system by far, it leaves too much to interpretation and protects the perpetrator at cost to the victim.
I apologize if I have ruined your week .. women's rights is an important cause for me, I merely sought to raise awareness.
Quote: ethereal: how do you prove intent? Must the accused confirm it? An honest criminal... the judicial system of Sweden is the most criminal friendly it would seem.
This messed up my entire week.
This messed up my entire week.
The accused confirming it is one way, the judge may look at behavior too and related evidence to infer intention. It is not a perfect system by far, it leaves too much to interpretation and protects the perpetrator at cost to the victim.
I apologize if I have ruined your week .. women's rights is an important cause for me, I merely sought to raise awareness.
detrimentum 2015/01/29 07:32
One would think the court interprets a man thinking no means yes as dysfunctional behaviour... No, didn't mean it like that, everyone must know about this. Unfortunately google is bombarded with ''latest terrorist attack'' searches , no one caring about their own demented backyard.
Quote: Opium:
The accused confirming it is one way, the judge may look at behavior too and related evidence to infer intention. It is not a perfect system by far, it leaves too much to interpretation and protects the perpetrator at cost to the victim.
I apologize if I have ruined your week .. women's rights is an important cause for me, I merely sought to raise awareness.
The accused confirming it is one way, the judge may look at behavior too and related evidence to infer intention. It is not a perfect system by far, it leaves too much to interpretation and protects the perpetrator at cost to the victim.
I apologize if I have ruined your week .. women's rights is an important cause for me, I merely sought to raise awareness.
One would think the court interprets a man thinking no means yes as dysfunctional behaviour... No, didn't mean it like that, everyone must know about this. Unfortunately google is bombarded with ''latest terrorist attack'' searches , no one caring about their own demented backyard.
detrimentum 2015/01/29 07:49
Quote: Opium: This part is my own opinion so skip it or do not at your own discretion:
As woman yes but also as a person regardless of my gender I believe a woman's body is her own and no one has the right to do anything to it against her will and certainly not with impunity. Unless it is part of a prearranged and explicitly negotiated agreement with a safe word, no always means just that, No. It is not complicated and there are no exceptions.
Whether this man "intended" or did not intend to commit the rape, he DID commit it and I feel the law should do something about it. There has been a crime and if nothing else the victim of the crime deserves justice, it does not erase the crime but it is all the state can do for her at this point.
While the judgement is in line with the law it is not in line with the spirit of the law and legal arguments have been successfully made many times on this basis so it would not be without precedent.
I agree. Its not complicated at all. A 2 year old knows the meaning of no... You can't rape someone by mistake. There is no such thing as unintended rape. Its consensual or its not. There isn't anything inbetween. He did rape her, and he meant to rape her. And she lost her voice trying to express that she did not want it. Even in a safe word scenario... A functional man would stop the moment a women screams like that.
As woman yes but also as a person regardless of my gender I believe a woman's body is her own and no one has the right to do anything to it against her will and certainly not with impunity. Unless it is part of a prearranged and explicitly negotiated agreement with a safe word, no always means just that, No. It is not complicated and there are no exceptions.
Whether this man "intended" or did not intend to commit the rape, he DID commit it and I feel the law should do something about it. There has been a crime and if nothing else the victim of the crime deserves justice, it does not erase the crime but it is all the state can do for her at this point.
While the judgement is in line with the law it is not in line with the spirit of the law and legal arguments have been successfully made many times on this basis so it would not be without precedent.
Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 07:55
Sweden is not well known outside of Europe, its news rarely make headlines internationally. Aside from this, while "terrorism" is as abstract as "rape" it has a face or at least people try to assign a face to it. "Rape" has not ethnicity, religion or country, it is everywhere and can potentially be perpetrated by anyone. It is faceless thus it is by far the more frightening of the two and the one that is more difficult to battle, so it is also the least likely to be focused on.
Quote: ethereal:
One would think the court interprets a man thinking no means yes as dysfunctional behaviour... No, didn't mean it like that, everyone must know about this. Unfortunately google is bombarded with ''latest terrorist attack'' searches , no one caring about their own demented backyard.
One would think the court interprets a man thinking no means yes as dysfunctional behaviour... No, didn't mean it like that, everyone must know about this. Unfortunately google is bombarded with ''latest terrorist attack'' searches , no one caring about their own demented backyard.
Sweden is not well known outside of Europe, its news rarely make headlines internationally. Aside from this, while "terrorism" is as abstract as "rape" it has a face or at least people try to assign a face to it. "Rape" has not ethnicity, religion or country, it is everywhere and can potentially be perpetrated by anyone. It is faceless thus it is by far the more frightening of the two and the one that is more difficult to battle, so it is also the least likely to be focused on.
detrimentum 2015/01/29 08:17
I think its very easy to Battle, the problem is that the punishment for rape isn't feared. A man raped an 11year old girl here, he got 18 years in prison. Not only will he be lodged, fed and educated in prison, he'll still be able to live for some time after his sentence is over. now, if the punishment for raping a child was getting your penis chopped off... The battle against rape would be over very fast. But chopping off a man's penis ( even if he raped a child) would be violating his human rights. Human rights!!!!! What a joke. rape has a face, and that face has become common. Its not focussed on for that reason. There is up to 3600 rapes a day in south africa. Its the most common crime. So common that its sometimes not reported or dockets are lost. The injustice when it comes to rape is enough to drive me crazy.
Quote: Opium:
Sweden is not well known outside of Europe, its news rarely make headlines internationally. Aside from this while "terrorism" is as abstract as "rape" it has a face or at least people try to assign a face to it. "Rape" has not ethnicity, religion or country, it is everywhere and can potentially be perpetrated by anyone. It is faceless thus it is by far the more frightening of the two and the one that is more difficult to battle, so it is also the least likely to be focused on.
Sweden is not well known outside of Europe, its news rarely make headlines internationally. Aside from this while "terrorism" is as abstract as "rape" it has a face or at least people try to assign a face to it. "Rape" has not ethnicity, religion or country, it is everywhere and can potentially be perpetrated by anyone. It is faceless thus it is by far the more frightening of the two and the one that is more difficult to battle, so it is also the least likely to be focused on.
I think its very easy to Battle, the problem is that the punishment for rape isn't feared. A man raped an 11year old girl here, he got 18 years in prison. Not only will he be lodged, fed and educated in prison, he'll still be able to live for some time after his sentence is over. now, if the punishment for raping a child was getting your penis chopped off... The battle against rape would be over very fast. But chopping off a man's penis ( even if he raped a child) would be violating his human rights. Human rights!!!!! What a joke. rape has a face, and that face has become common. Its not focussed on for that reason. There is up to 3600 rapes a day in south africa. Its the most common crime. So common that its sometimes not reported or dockets are lost. The injustice when it comes to rape is enough to drive me crazy.
Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 08:39
I have just commented on a corruption topic and so I will use that as an example. On the mainland corruption is punishable by death, it does not eliminate corruption however.
I do not believe it is the punishment that needs to change (although I would welcome harsher prison terms), what needs to change is society. For as long as certain attitudes persist in our societies and a stand is not taken against them the problems associated with them will persist alongside them.
There are not many crimes that I would consider worse than rape and there are probably few that have been present in human society for as long and across as many communities. Eliminating it is a necessity but were it easy surely it would have been done already for that very reason ... No, it is not an easy thing to eliminate but there are people across the world who are attempting to do just that, against often trying circumstances and so there is hope.
Quote: ethereal:
I think its very easy to Battle, the problem is that the punishment for rape isn't feared. A man raped an 11year old girl here, he got 18 years in prison. Not only will he be lodged, fed and educated in prison, he'll still be able to live for some time after his sentence is over. now, if the punishment for raping a child was getting your penis chopped off... The battle against rape would be over very fast. But chopping off a man's penis ( even if he raped a child) would be violating his human rights. Human rights!!!!! What a joke. rape has a face, and that face has become common. Its not focussed on for that reason. There is up to 3600 rapes a day in south africa. Its the most common crime. So common that its sometimes not reported or dockets are lost. The injustice when it comes to rape is enough to drive me crazy.
I think its very easy to Battle, the problem is that the punishment for rape isn't feared. A man raped an 11year old girl here, he got 18 years in prison. Not only will he be lodged, fed and educated in prison, he'll still be able to live for some time after his sentence is over. now, if the punishment for raping a child was getting your penis chopped off... The battle against rape would be over very fast. But chopping off a man's penis ( even if he raped a child) would be violating his human rights. Human rights!!!!! What a joke. rape has a face, and that face has become common. Its not focussed on for that reason. There is up to 3600 rapes a day in south africa. Its the most common crime. So common that its sometimes not reported or dockets are lost. The injustice when it comes to rape is enough to drive me crazy.
I have just commented on a corruption topic and so I will use that as an example. On the mainland corruption is punishable by death, it does not eliminate corruption however.
I do not believe it is the punishment that needs to change (although I would welcome harsher prison terms), what needs to change is society. For as long as certain attitudes persist in our societies and a stand is not taken against them the problems associated with them will persist alongside them.
There are not many crimes that I would consider worse than rape and there are probably few that have been present in human society for as long and across as many communities. Eliminating it is a necessity but were it easy surely it would have been done already for that very reason ... No, it is not an easy thing to eliminate but there are people across the world who are attempting to do just that, against often trying circumstances and so there is hope.
detrimentum 2015/01/29 08:59
When your country is run by a man who has been accused of rape then there is no hope in that government, system or judicial system. I firmly believe chopping penises off will work. I hope that communities eventually realize that they are capable of standing up and forcing justice by doing it themselves. does that make me barbaric? thinking stoning a rapists to death in the street is okay? Maybe I am... One cant be civilized when children are being raped. you get a certain degree of liberal that is borderline insanity. That such a person needs to be treated in a civilized manner.
Quote: Opium:
I have just commented on a corruption topic and so I will use that as an example. On the mainland corruption is punishable by death, it does not eliminate corruption however.
I do not believe it is the punishment that needs to change (although I would welcome harsher prison terms), what needs to change is society. For as long as certain attitudes persist in our societies and a stand is not taken against them the problems associated with them will persist alongside them.
There are not many crimes that I would consider worse than rape and there are probably few that have been present in human society for as long and across as many communities. Eliminating it is a necessity but were it easy surely it would have been done already for that very reason ... No, it is not an easy thing to eliminate but there are people across the world who are attempting to do just that, against often trying circumstances and so there is hope.
I have just commented on a corruption topic and so I will use that as an example. On the mainland corruption is punishable by death, it does not eliminate corruption however.
I do not believe it is the punishment that needs to change (although I would welcome harsher prison terms), what needs to change is society. For as long as certain attitudes persist in our societies and a stand is not taken against them the problems associated with them will persist alongside them.
There are not many crimes that I would consider worse than rape and there are probably few that have been present in human society for as long and across as many communities. Eliminating it is a necessity but were it easy surely it would have been done already for that very reason ... No, it is not an easy thing to eliminate but there are people across the world who are attempting to do just that, against often trying circumstances and so there is hope.
When your country is run by a man who has been accused of rape then there is no hope in that government, system or judicial system. I firmly believe chopping penises off will work. I hope that communities eventually realize that they are capable of standing up and forcing justice by doing it themselves. does that make me barbaric? thinking stoning a rapists to death in the street is okay? Maybe I am... One cant be civilized when children are being raped. you get a certain degree of liberal that is borderline insanity. That such a person needs to be treated in a civilized manner.
Xiao Zen 2015/01/29 11:37
The theory of social contract states that we as members of communities and, on a larger scale, of countries give up certain rights to the state in order for society to function. We do not seek revenge instead relying on the state to enforce its laws and seek justice on our behalf in the courts instead. When the state does its duties and fulfills its part of the social contract then society works as intended, when the state does not then people wish to seek their own justice instead and no longer feel bound by social contract.
Are you barbaric? I cannot say, as a mother I would stop at nothing to ensure the safety of my son and so I sympathize with the parents of children who are abused in this or any other fashion and could not judge them should they seek vengeance if the state denies them justice as I would likely consider doing the same were I in their position. As a living being with a soul I sympathize with the other victims, the women and men (it is not often discussed but men are at times victims too), I admit I cannot bring myself to pity those that victimize them.
However bear this in mind, the French Revolution was just in its aim and intent but justice carried too far turned the streets of Paris red with blood, belonging to both the guilty and the innocent. Outrage is good, it moves us to change that which requires changing but it also narrows our vision and this can lead to unintended consequences. Once a person is dead or maimed it is too late to take back our actions even should his innocence be proven, our ignorance then would be as feeble an excuse as the rapists claims of ignorance in Sweden.
Quote: ethereal:
When your country is run by a man who has been accused of rape then there is no hope in that government, system or judicial system. I firmly believe chopping penises off will work. I hope that communities eventually realize that they are capable of standing up and forcing justice by doing it themselves. does that make me barbaric? thinking stoning a rapists to death in the street is okay? Maybe I am... One cant be civilized when children are being raped. you get a certain degree of liberal that is borderline insanity. That such a person needs to be treated in a civilized manner.
When your country is run by a man who has been accused of rape then there is no hope in that government, system or judicial system. I firmly believe chopping penises off will work. I hope that communities eventually realize that they are capable of standing up and forcing justice by doing it themselves. does that make me barbaric? thinking stoning a rapists to death in the street is okay? Maybe I am... One cant be civilized when children are being raped. you get a certain degree of liberal that is borderline insanity. That such a person needs to be treated in a civilized manner.
The theory of social contract states that we as members of communities and, on a larger scale, of countries give up certain rights to the state in order for society to function. We do not seek revenge instead relying on the state to enforce its laws and seek justice on our behalf in the courts instead. When the state does its duties and fulfills its part of the social contract then society works as intended, when the state does not then people wish to seek their own justice instead and no longer feel bound by social contract.
Are you barbaric? I cannot say, as a mother I would stop at nothing to ensure the safety of my son and so I sympathize with the parents of children who are abused in this or any other fashion and could not judge them should they seek vengeance if the state denies them justice as I would likely consider doing the same were I in their position. As a living being with a soul I sympathize with the other victims, the women and men (it is not often discussed but men are at times victims too), I admit I cannot bring myself to pity those that victimize them.
However bear this in mind, the French Revolution was just in its aim and intent but justice carried too far turned the streets of Paris red with blood, belonging to both the guilty and the innocent. Outrage is good, it moves us to change that which requires changing but it also narrows our vision and this can lead to unintended consequences. Once a person is dead or maimed it is too late to take back our actions even should his innocence be proven, our ignorance then would be as feeble an excuse as the rapists claims of ignorance in Sweden.
detrimentum 2015/01/29 12:39
I agree... Like that old man taking cookies from the shop, they attacked him physically for stealing and it turned out he had Dementia and had no idea where he was and what he Did. So yes, its a dangerous thing. As a mother I'd rather not think about it, its unhealthy. I'd chip him, leash him, tracker him and put one of those things with the alarm on his ankle. I'm not there yet, but I'm not that far from it.
Quote: Opium:
The theory of social contract states that we as members of communities and, on a larger scale, of countries give up certain rights to the state in order for society to function. We do not seek revenge instead relying on the state to enforce its laws and seek justice on our behalf in the courts instead. When the state does its duties and fulfills its part of the social contract then society works as intended, when the state does not then people wish to seek their own justice instead and no longer feel bound by social contract.
Are you barbaric? I cannot say, as a mother I would stop at nothing to ensure the safety of my son and so I sympathize with the parents of children who are abused in this or any other fashion and could not judge them should they seek vengeance if the state denies them justice as I would likely consider doing the same were I in their position. As a living being with a soul I sympathize with the other victims, the women and men (it is not often discussed but men are sometimes victims too), I admit I cannot bring myself to pity those that victimize them.
However bear this in mind, the French Revolution was just in its aim and intent but justice carried too far turned the streets of Paris red with blood, belonging to both the guilty and the innocent. Outrage is good, it moves us to change that which requires changing but it also narrows our vision and this can lead to unintended consequences. Once a person is dead or maimed it is too late to take back our actions even should his innocence be proven, our ignorance then would be as feeble an excuse as the rapists claims of ignorance in Sweden.
The theory of social contract states that we as members of communities and, on a larger scale, of countries give up certain rights to the state in order for society to function. We do not seek revenge instead relying on the state to enforce its laws and seek justice on our behalf in the courts instead. When the state does its duties and fulfills its part of the social contract then society works as intended, when the state does not then people wish to seek their own justice instead and no longer feel bound by social contract.
Are you barbaric? I cannot say, as a mother I would stop at nothing to ensure the safety of my son and so I sympathize with the parents of children who are abused in this or any other fashion and could not judge them should they seek vengeance if the state denies them justice as I would likely consider doing the same were I in their position. As a living being with a soul I sympathize with the other victims, the women and men (it is not often discussed but men are sometimes victims too), I admit I cannot bring myself to pity those that victimize them.
However bear this in mind, the French Revolution was just in its aim and intent but justice carried too far turned the streets of Paris red with blood, belonging to both the guilty and the innocent. Outrage is good, it moves us to change that which requires changing but it also narrows our vision and this can lead to unintended consequences. Once a person is dead or maimed it is too late to take back our actions even should his innocence be proven, our ignorance then would be as feeble an excuse as the rapists claims of ignorance in Sweden.
I agree... Like that old man taking cookies from the shop, they attacked him physically for stealing and it turned out he had Dementia and had no idea where he was and what he Did. So yes, its a dangerous thing. As a mother I'd rather not think about it, its unhealthy. I'd chip him, leash him, tracker him and put one of those things with the alarm on his ankle. I'm not there yet, but I'm not that far from it.
NinthElement 2015/01/29 14:13
I had no idea Sweden had such a lax interpretation of rape. It sends an incredibly bad message to place such ambiguity on evidence that seems like a clear-cut guilty verdict. It also seems bizarre to me that they let that b**tard go while at the same time being doggedly determined to bring in Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, considering the charges against him in Sweden seem far weaker than the facts described in the above case.
I had no idea Sweden had such a lax interpretation of rape. It sends an incredibly bad message to place such ambiguity on evidence that seems like a clear-cut guilty verdict. It also seems bizarre to me that they let that b**tard go while at the same time being doggedly determined to bring in Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, considering the charges against him in Sweden seem far weaker than the facts described in the above case.
latrine 2015/01/29 19:51
Death to rapist ....best solution....no matter what..if i had the power the death sentance would be reinstated asap
Death to rapist ....best solution....no matter what..if i had the power the death sentance would be reinstated asap
detrimentum 2015/01/30 05:07
I know! well, its still screwed up, just not as much anymore.
Quote: latrine: and u would think our system was screwed up
I know! well, its still screwed up, just not as much anymore.
NinthElement 2015/01/30 13:54
Quote: Lemon:
It comes down to gain don't you think, that and priorities. They don't really get any political currency by pursuing the rapist. Jailing Assange on the other hand gets them political currency in spades.
Exactly my point. They want to earn favours from the US. They could at least avoid hypocrisy in the meantime by getting tough on real rapists.
It comes down to gain don't you think, that and priorities. They don't really get any political currency by pursuing the rapist. Jailing Assange on the other hand gets them political currency in spades.
latrine 2015/02/01 21:57
............this country, as beautiful as it is..as much as i love my land an ppl...as much as i enjoy the beautiful oceans that we safricans love..as our beautiful lush country sides take our breath away..as the wild animals that roam...this is home.. but our laws ,rather the ppl protecting our laws are as strong as the paper its written on
............this country, as beautiful as it is..as much as i love my land an ppl...as much as i enjoy the beautiful oceans that we safricans love..as our beautiful lush country sides take our breath away..as the wild animals that roam...this is home.. but our laws ,rather the ppl protecting our laws are as strong as the paper its written on
Replies: 23
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